Speak It, Sister!

[redheadedfemme]

Debs over at The Burning Times has a great post on how "sex-positive" feminism isn't feminism at all.

Comments

[jenwrites.livejournal.com]

What bothers me about that argument is that it focuses solely on heterosexual porn. What about women who make porn with women for women? What about male on male porn? Is that okay? What about woman-produced f/m porn that's made for couples to watch together? Porn is far more complicated than the post you linked to makes it out to be, which is probably why I've yet to see an feminist anti-porn argument tackle lesbian, gay, or woman-produced porn. Really, is Susie Bright not a feminist? Should my woman friends who do burlesque stop calling themselves feminists? Would it make a difference if they were part of a fat woman's burlesque troupe?

Also, the term "pro-sex feminist" came about in reaction to Dworkin and MacKinnon's extremely anti-sex attitudes. It's been a while since I've read the original sources, but I have, and they're packed away in boxes up in my attic. I know a lot of what's been attributed to them is apocryphal, but it was powerful apocrypha that led some feminists to reclaim sex for the cause. So I support "pro-sex feminist" as a useful and meaningful term.

And for the record, I consider myself a third wave feminist in a very literal sense of the term. My grandmother was a lawyer and a member of La Leche League, and my mother raised me on Ms. Magazine and Free to Be You and Me.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

oh, and you're not as feminist as you think you are if you're trotting out the bullshit about Dworkin being anti-sex and so forth. That's not feminist at all. If I just read that statement, I'd have concluded you were just some twentysomething dude with the usual MRA prejudices about feminists and women. What next? Dworkin said all sex is rape?

[jenwrites.livejournal.com]

Please. There is room for disagreement in feminism, which you would know if you were more widely-read in the field. I have read the works of Dworkin and MacKinnon and have found them to be fairly sex-negative. Their definition of feminist sex is limited and, well, doesn't sound terribly fun. But again, I ask, is Susie Bright not a feminist? Is Annie Sprinkle not a feminist? What about the women in the Big Bottom Revue? Is it un-feminist of me to enjoy watching gay male porn? How am I hurting women by enjoying that? Or are men in porn fair game? I certainly don't hear the anti-porn feminists decrying the objectification of Ron Jeremy.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Don't condescend to me, you arrogant little shit. Just because Dworkin isn't gushing about your kinks and illusions doesn't make your opinion valid. I've heard this crap before from other porn justifiers. Same old bullshit, different day.

And seeing as how this is Sproggenfree's LJ, I'm bowing out because I sure as hell don't need to waste my time with some arrogant little sex poz with a stick up her ass.

If porn is so great and so wonderful, where's the porn that glorifies other things?

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

After all, we don't have a billion-dollar industry devoted to the subjugation of black people and Jews. We don't have people justifying such an industry by claiming that there's black-on-black porn that features all those satisfying stereotypes of black people. We don't have Jewish people proclaiming that working in an industry that depicts them as money-grubbers is empowering. We don't privilege those forms of hatred. But when it's women and/or it's sex, suddenly we have to kiss ass and call it foreplay.

Re: If porn is so great and so wonderful, where's the porn that glorifies other things?

[jenwrites.livejournal.com]

It sounds like you have a really limited view of porn. It's not all snuff films and tying women up and rubbing shit in their faces, you know. There's even porn without any women in it at all. But you wouldn't know it from your argument. You're not addressing any of the points in my post. I'd happily welcome a debate, but if you're just going to yell your point of view at me like Bill O'Reilly, then I'm not going to respond again.

Re: If porn is so great and so wonderful, where's the porn that glorifies other things?

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Wow, you really do see shit that isn't htere, but thanks for playing anyway, Miss I-Can-Read-Minds. Don't trip over the priv, there, or anything.
Christ, I don't know I bother with this sex pox bullshit. Go ahead and jerk off to your little intellectual fantasies, but don't expect to fool anybody who's more realistic. And take your references to snuff films and shit and shove 'em.

[amqu.livejournal.com]

I think porn is bad for people, although for a different reason from this author. She opposes it because it keeps women down in the context of a man-dominated society. I feel it spiritually harms people whether as a participant or a viewer. So our worldview is obviously different.

But two practical problems with her post:

1. People say that getting rid of porn would be censorship. Well, true, but it’s a censorship I’m more than willing to put up with...

How does she propose to get rid of porn? Does she wish for it to be criminalized?

2. To me the phrase “pro-porn feminist” is a contradiction in terms. You have to decide which you are, pro-porn or a feminist, because you can’t be both without doing one of them so badly as to make it meaningless. It is as much a contradiction as “pro-life feminist” - the two terms cancel each other out.

I think this is why more women have no wish to associate themselves with feminism. There is a big complaint about how the younger generation doesn't appreciate the feminism that came before them and just want to go their own way. Feminists say, "you need to be a feminist," but then they say you can't be a feminist unless you believe x, y, z.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

What's so hard about that? You can't be a feminist unless you believe that women are human beings, and porn is about making them into figments for men to get off to. Most porn is directed at men and it's a huge business; the other stuff---the supposedly feminist porn---came later. Gay porn is about male sexual desire. Male sexual desire has always been about getting gratification, who cares if anybody gets hurt.

Feminism and different points of view

[amqu.livejournal.com]

As the comment that you are answering makes clear, I think porn is damaging to everyone, women, men, heterosexual, homosexual. And although they don't have a spiritual component, I think any animals that might be involved probably don't enjoy it either.

My point was the exclusivity of feminism thought versus the complaint that more women were not becoming feminists. The more you say, "this is feminism and your views about porn, abortion, etc, mean you are not a feminist," then obviously the less women are going to identify themselves as feminists.

I have no problem with it being that exclusive. If that is what constitutes feminist ideology, that's fine. But that just means a lot less people are going to self-identify as feminists. So perhaps I am misunderstanding the common complaint that less women are identifying as feminists. Perhaps the complaint should actually be worded, more and more women are holding onto anti-feminist views such as pro-porn and pro-life.

Re: Feminism and different points of view

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Abortion? I'm sorry, you use abortion as an example? Anti Choice people simply can't call themselves feminists because they believe that the fetus is more important than the woman. It's a shitty example because it illustrates either than you're careless with your examples or you really don't understand the issue.

I don't see what the big deal here is. You want to exploit women? Want to be exploited yourself? Don't expect me to kiss your ass and coo because you're a woman. If you're a fool and you hurt women I just don't care. If you're a woman, you don't get to be an asshole to other women and get away with it because you think feminists won't justifiably call you on bullshit. There's no complexity there. Deal with it.

Re: Feminism and different points of view

[amqu.livejournal.com]

I used abortion/pro-life as an example simply because that was mentioned in the original article as an idea that automatically excludes you as a feminist. I am commenting on the article. It's less obvious what you are talking about.

I don't want to exploit women. I don't want you to coo. I don't even want you to agree with me. Frankly, I don't care if pro-porn and pro-life people are excluded from feminism. I was just making a point about one aspect of the article vis-a-vis my understanding of a common complaint among feminists.

[redheadedfemme]

I think this splintering in third-wave feminism (what you call "believing in x, y and z") is the main reason why women are slowly losing their hard-fought gains. This happened as far back as the 1980's and started happening again after 9/11 (read Susan Faludi's "Backlash" and "The Terror Dream" for excellent arguments along this line). To fall back on a cliche, if we don't hang together we will surely hang separately.

[amqu.livejournal.com]

I might go down to the library and check out Backlash. If I do, I'll post an LJ entry with my thoughts about it.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that at all. And I don't care. You can't make feminism into a big tent that includes every idiot woman out there who wants to browbeat people into accepting her stupid, harmful decisions. She wants to limit the harm to herself, that's her business. She wants to help men exploit other women? Forget about it. She's my enemy then and I don't give a shit what her gender is.

You're actually blaming feminism for the way womens' rights have been constnatly under attack by outside forces for decades? Way to blame the victim. If you got that out of "Backlash" I don't know what in hell you were reading. Faludi has gone on record---and the book is quite plain---that the book is about the way feminism has been the object of attacks since its inception. "The Terror Dream" is about how conservatives saw a new opportunity for attacking women. Yet you blame it on feminists and women. I'm just amazed.